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Watch the interviews below; transcript follows.
Matt: Hi, folks, I’m here today with none other than Alexey Pajitnov. He is a computer engineer and game designer. He created one of the best-loved video games of all time, namely Tetris.
Alexey: I am fine.
Matt: Before we start diving into the history of Tetris and all that stuff, I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what you have been up to lately and what your plans are for the near future?
Alexey: I am a little bit of all dollerated for game industry so I can say that I am rather a bit tired over it, but I am still working perhaps small projects and that I might have a small team working for and of my partner, which was fun when we worked together. We do several games for apps store, they are there.
Matt: I think there was one called Marbley?
Alexey: Yeah, Marbley is a kind of traditional puzzle game.
Matt: What that the lay of this one?
Alexey: Was the last of lots of levels. With it several other small titles are from that. For example I fall in love with a game called Flow and its derivatives. I see you are about as fond as well so probably have tried it.
Matt: For the PS4?
Alexey: Yeah, it is on the app store with lots of derivatives as well. You have several couples of one color totes and you need to come with the line and fill up the entire field. So it is also very traditional puzzle stuff you see 150 years ago I think by the **** what I don’t remember exactly. That is a very fine game and we did with the worlds some variations called Simple Links that is a title. We did several other titles.
Matt: Sounds good. So let’s talk a little bit about this getting into the history. I posted I was doing this interview on Twitter and Facebook and I got a lot of questions along these lines so this is from David Arcano. He wants to know if you can tell us a little bit about the environment in which you created Tetris? Obviously the Soviet Union, it is probably not something a lot of people are familiar with that watch this show, so could you kind of just generally describe the setting?
Alexey: It was 1984 and I did work at the Computer Center of **** Science of USSR. So that was there. I came to use Science of USSR was kind of ministry of the sciences. Generally from the mental science all kinds of the mental science, physics, game industry, geology, everything. So computer science was one of the sciences and Computer Center was one of its leading kind of research institutes. It called Computer Center because it provides service for calculation for entire academy, but the science that it was a kind of fully evolved kind of institute. Scientists can institute, I don’t know if people know about that field there, so it was a very funny kind of facility full of Russian scientists in computer research so that was the first kind of place where all the hackers start to join. While I was one of them and we had a very small space there. Everything was packed with some kind of fiber and strange equipment and I don’t know we didn’t have any kind of certain work hours. Because we were so packed people came to work at strange hours. For example I usually came late about 10 or 11, maybe noon and stayed until midnight every day. It was kind of…. Working hours for me. Basically what you do all the people would more or less a series of research for computer science. That is how I would describe it.
Matt: Let’s say we were talking about the USSR, you probably have seen that movie Tetris from Russia with Love, the documentary.
Alexey: Oh yes, they showed me.
Matt: They always make it seem like it was such a dark and grey kind of scary place, but it sounds like it was actually, you had some fun there at this computer center right?
Alexey: Yes, I came to very good friends there we are still attached and we still meet each other, but we love to work together. So basically your general life was kind of dark and that is true because the ideology pressed a lot that Communist ideology for everyone and everywhere and basically it was no too much of entertainment in counter general. It was some, but maybe it kind of five times less than the rest of the world. So, basically the work was one of the kind of main stuff in values and time spent in application. That is why the work place was really working to have friendly and interesting confine. So that is why that was a good place for me. I don’t know. I can’t remember any seriously negative kind of periods of my work time there. We smoked a lot so every maybe 40 or 60 minutes we went out and smoked and talked and discussed everything around. While we have small cafeteria there we would spend some time there for coffee and kind of too often. Basically I can’t remember that it was kind of dark and pressing confines. I feel very comfortable with it.
Matt: What kind of access did you have to video games? I read somewhere that you are a big fan of Loderunner.
Alexey: Oh yeah, it was a little bit later. Basically we were kind of very serious facility. We would do the serious science thing and there were lots of big scientists working there. Games were never considered as anything kind of hosting some attention. Somehow, for my bad life I loved the games and puzzles and everything. Whatever reason I had to get my hands over on the games and puzzles I have always did and the excuse was all the time was the hardware and software you know when you test something, you check how it works, how the graphics, we didn’t have much graphics at that time, but anyway. That is why I, forever the game kind of show up or just glance around I tried to get them. The first PC stock I meant to work for computer center and the word was the geek. The games was very kind of unusual for us, so people there attracted them and had all the time all there spare time they tried to play and tried to do something. The first game as you remember was very puzzlish. Every time it was kind of the puzzle element in the game we needed something to figure out. The scientists in Computer Center were really much kind of attracted to this, it was such intellectual challenges. Basically, I would say that people are, were very interested and attracted to the game, but general attitude was not kind of serious so people all the time understand that this is just wasting time.
Matt: How would you describe the state of these computers you were getting? Was this cutting edge stuff? Was this older technology?
Alexey: So we didn’t work one, our serious kind of work and research wasn’t work at all, but we tried to catch up with the rest of the world. When we saw the first PC that I recalled it was those machines. I don’t know. So from one side they were very attractive, they were tried to make it user friendly. They had a kind of beautiful monitors more or less a kind of comfortable keyboards. They even had mouses of some kind. Everything looks like something very cutting edge, but as a specialist when the student and the computer are not kind of way too powerful. As soon as we got to its guts to put some programs there we understood that processors weren’t so very powerful and wow, kind of memory. Memory were a key kind of on the level, but not cutting edge stuff. We were very excited with the huge hard disc memory. That was something we had never seen before.
Matt: Tell me about this computer, the Electronica 60 mini computer.
Alexey: Electronica 60 has no, before Tetris you didn’t have any games on it because that was just a very first attempt to make kind of personal computer in Russia. It was one of an SI 11 or PT 11 machine and basically give game was the absolutely awful kind of hardware around. The devices were just awful and understand the configuration, it was a very ancient, awful typewriter called console. That was something which people who heard about immediately start to walk because it was a kind of very heavy very bad made machine, which you knew to type it immediately types it. It really hurt to change something impossible to read about it, just typing in. That was the device which was kind of absolutely impossible to work. People who bought this machine immediately get this console and other stuff and was the monitors that existed at the time, which was marvelous. I don’t know should I explain what monitor means or not? They used to play what was the specializing device was the keyboard and the screen, which could use just the texts 20 lines for 80 symbols each. It was kind of micro processors on site, which didn’t produce any brackets, but only text on the screen. That is what we called monitors at this place. The typewriter used as a separate device, at some point they become just the device for computers and as those device for decayed I believe. As soon as console was replaced by the display the paper type storage device was replaced by floppy discs, those stuff kind of become personal computers, which could be more or less reasonable operating system and at this point it starts to be a serious and interesting work place. As soon as we were equipped with this I was to work with this environment of Electronica 60. I fall in love with it and spent lots of time with this machine, make my measure work and speech recognition using and use all my spare time to put together some puzzles and games.
Matt: Do you still have one of those Electronica 60’s lying around there somewhere?
Alexey: No, I don’t have one at my disposal, but we have a kind of small museum in employment software company and we have one of this computer in this museum. Sometimes, it used to work, but now it is some kind of hardware problems that it just stays there.
Matt: I have lots of questions about the Pintamano game. Tetris was based on David. I noticed that you were playing with in that movie, Tetris From Russian with Love, you had this little sort of red Pintamano game you were playing.
Alexey: Oh yeah, I could show you in just a second. I keep this box with me all the time.
Matt: So is that the one?
Alexey: It is about a 50 year old puzzle, which I called as I was a boy. I bought lots of them so I am not sure which one is this one. That is the box with all the Pintamanos in there. I can show the very little pieces. Those are pieces, they are all made out of 5 square. This is just small plastic pieces. That is the V shape, that is the L shape, what else do I have? P shape and so on. There are, all you could do out of 5 square is 12 different shapes. I see my timer is on top of my screen.
Matt: There is a couple of shapes in there that are not in Tetris right?
Alexey: No, none of them are in the Tetris game. It is 5 squares. Basically, there are 12 shapes on them and this is a very cute kind of conceptually very cute set. They are all very different, you never mix up one with another. You could play with them as shapes, you could put together some designs, some silhouettes or whatever. When you tried to put them back in this box you could spend a good hour trying to fit all the pieces in there as it happens with traditional puzzles. That is what the puzzle was about. One time in my life I did play a lot with them and I loved them and somehow I feel I understand some kind of mystical property of each piece. I know that this piece is awful, but it is very friendly with this piece. Probably there should be someway to get them together. One time I think that it would be probably a good idea to put together fourth game for two players in this set. I want to do a computer and decide to program it. That is the story of that. At that point I didn’t need to finalize the designs, the rules, everything. I just start with the programs there. You know you put some kind of geometrical game or the computer with no graphics and that has kind of changed. I need to use this as the symbols for the graphic elements there. In order to put the square I used a square bracket open and closed and the line that looks like a square. So that shape was kind of 5 open square bracket and 5 closed all of those in different lines. The units are some kind of routines too handle all of this stuff. You need to place it, you need to realize it, you need to move them, to free them, to rotate them, and everything is procedured. So I put together those procedures for this screen. A kind of technical task.
Matt: I am kind of wondering if this computer you are working on had graphics would you have made a different kind of game:
Alexey: Probably yes, the geometry is very wide and interesting creating and has lots of very interesting visions. By the way, it’s not very much kind of exploited here. I didn’t see too many very geometrical puzzles there. So probably here it is a problem with human brains. People are not very brilliant. Many people have bad mark in German brains. Yeah, but anyway. So when I start to program it and I put the rotational procedure in these pieces on the screen they rotate so finally I need to make a real entire game, which is kind of why rotate in flight came to my mind. The idea was very attractive so I tried to mention to put all those pieces in a very dense form. I needed lines that 12 shapes are too much for this game so I downsized that stuff to tetrameters. There are only 5 tetrameters in the world. Only 5 shapes you could go out of 4 squares. If you are to fleet them then you have two extra shapes for symmetrical forms and this seven number is very magical so I love it immediately. I start to put together and start playing with those 7 shapes. When I make those main star that you put it left and move it right and down and rotate them I realized that it is not enough space to play realtime game for a reasonable amount of time. My playing field filled up almost immediately in 30 seconds. Either I need to screw with it and make it really work well like several latest version of Tetris exploit this opportunity. This time I did like the same here because you don’t see everything and you rely on the players memory if it is very good. I noticed that if you kind of fill up entire lines, several lines, but fill ups in this case it is kind of dead. You can’t do anything with it, so what is the reason to keep it on this very precious real estate on the screen? So I try to get rid of it from the screen and that was the very important moment for Tetris. Too common shape.
Matt: I am kind of intrigued by this, you mentioned this mystical nature of these pieces, and it kind of reminds me of something Archimedes or Pythagoris might say. You just kind of look at numbers as very abstract thing and I guess shapes and geometry, you almost have some kind of mystical connection.
Alexey: Well, my background is what you make it. So I know while it is either generally a very mystical thing or they are not mystical at all if you attract your mind and look at formalism. It really depends on your attitude. In games there is some charm of the object you are dealing with, which is very close to some mystics. For example, Rubics Cube if you try to do it yourself from the very beginning you somehow understand that it is a very big and serious mystery saying with those very simple and primitive and movement with just small cubes around it.
Matt: That is the thing of playing Tetris though. I see what you are saying like that line is huge or that square, they make you feel different ways when you see those pieces falling down. I can’t even begin to describe, it must be something psychological I guess.
Alexey: Your expectation to put them together so their neighborhood is something. Sometimes you have no doubt that this piece should go exactly there. You have a really strong feeling about that. Sometimes you feel you do very ambivalent move, which might or not good my town and probably people are very into is those feelings. That is why they keep playing.
Matt: I am curious, when you finally got all the pieces together for playing this game you created, at what point did you, it seemed like I read somewhere maybe in the documentary where you were saying you didn’t really know if this would appeal to anybody else or if it appealed to you only. I mean, at what point did you finally realize look, this is a really big hit I’ve got on my hands here?
Alexey: I realized that it is a very good game. I know that I am not very unusual person. I like working much what other people like and I hate what other people hate, so I never distinguished myself from the other players. I might be a little more addicted to the puzzle stuff, but not the conception. So as soon as I realized that this game kind of keep me so strongly I realized that the game was not that bad at all, but I never expected to be that big.
Matt: This is just, what I would like to see is a time machine to the center so people playing this game for the first time without having any idea what it was. Eventually it dawning on everybody, hey this is an awesome game.
Alexey: Somehow the first look at the game and you move over the shoulder of the person it seems very simple for you to play and so delivering that every piece should go for you, but when your hands are on your keyboard or whatever then you realize it is not that simple and you got kind of chilling stuff and somehow it works that way. It always worked that way. My colleagues look at the game and ask what is so special? What are you doing here? When they try it was really hard to put away and say come on and debug it, decorate it more, or anything.
Matt: Some people thought Tetris was a really great destroyer or productivity in the work place. Some people even think it was some kind of secret weapon that is designed for that purpose.
Alexey: But you know, I spent lots of hours there, but I still feel that I did everything in life which I am supposed to do so I don’t feel like I really waste my time and Tetris helped me do a little bit of concentrate and focus and countdown and order in my feelings, I don’t know. I am human I don’t know who started their job day with Tetris playing about 15 or 20 minutes every day like, I don’t know, physical exercises. They feel really good the rest of the day. That was there kind of, their way to get them to move in the working mood for them. Basically, I hate those words about wasting time. I think that I provided a really good time for their life.
Matt: I couldn’t agree more with that. I am kind of wondering Alexey, what kind of background you might have in psychology? I understand before Tetris you made some sort of psychological games, I have seen them described, but I don’t know much about them.
Alexey: When I was younger at the time when I just started my guiding year I did a lot of stuff which helped you to write, helped you to put together a small operating system, I worked as s system operator, I did a lot of research stuff, I worked with cad cam system, with geometry, with speech recalculation. I tried practically all the areas of the computer applications and at that time I feel that I had the tools for making tools for people to make whatever. So I do very undirect impact on people and I think that this is just should basically, it is a way to make a computer useful for you and right for you and right now right here what you use it for. I think that what type of application could it be? So obviously it is in games, but it is also might be some kind of creative tools for you. At that time it was just a dream because we didn’t have too much time, all the hardware was very shoddy, but psychological stuff was all those areas. You could really get something useful and helpful from computer right from the screen. So I came to psychologist and proposed my computer skills to put together some of their methods using a computer. I did the work with several professionals in psychological and their methods using computers, so basically that is how I got my small but talent. I am not a professional psychologist at all, but I did work with lots of those people and on their very psychological stuff, so I had some stuff there.
Matt: Did you ever work with Vygotsky?
Alexey: Vygotsky? No.
Matt: I don’t know why I thought that, it was a random question.
Alexey: I don’t think he was alive at that time. I was not interested in this guy’s stuff or he was already very famous and unavailable kind of scientist. I did work with my bodies of people of my age and my level of scientific kind of background or whatever.
Matt: It was, not sure how to pronounce this, Gerasimov.
Alexey: Gerasimov. He was a schoolboy who gave for summer practice in computer center. He was absolutely genius guy. He was recommended for me to do the common version of my game from Electronica 60 to PC. So I did work with this at that time, so I did know of this computer and what this very fine year it was no, I didn’t know any easier way to convert my old pascal code for the game into this year. They don’t have any kind of part book to further make the conversion. I was very surprised when my team leader had it in no time. In three days he showed me my version of Tetris working on PC. That was very impressive for me and we keep working together for almost a year to try to use the wattages of PC to make this version more attractive, beautiful, and better working.
Matt: What sort of things did he add to the game?
Alexey: Very simply at that time he step in the game was ready. It was in working full force with all the levels and everything on my Electronica 60. Then we worked together so as design he didn’t do anything, but technically we worked so broaden view so he was very helpful for me. For example at that time the computer was kind of zoo, was very many variation so that the new version of 5 game PC come in more faster computer and we need to kind of calibrate the speed of the game very accurately. On the low level of operating system access it was really hard to do to go very deep in cheap order to make a kind of good calibration of this stuff. Then the graphic stuff, we need to decide now to arrange the screen. There was 3 modes of the screen and other monitors come, which kind of have their own video cards, which needs to be adjusted somehow. Lots of those technical stuff he really helped me to fix and to do.
Matt: So these versions, was there any music of sound effects:
Alexey: No, practically no. Probably we did some small things there, but I don’t remember what. Probably some sound, very basic sounds, just to finish the game or something like that. No, no music no sound effects that’s for sure.
Matt: What did you think the first time you saw that was the spectrum holovide or whoever brought out that version of Tetris that had the music and sort of Russian theme to it? Did you approve of those changes?
Alexey: Yes, I approved of them, but basically I was faced with very game ready to sell so I didn’t have any choice. I liked it, but I was much more concerned about the main mechanics to be reprejudiced from Kiev and I was very pleased that they did a very good job on it. As far as graphics the answer, I feel that the very bright and simple version which I came with was kind of more appropriate for my game, but I understand that I can’t be objective. So I didn’t object very much. So basically the theme was good. Well this awful story was the plane on the Red Square 2 place, which scared us a lot, but that is the other story. You know what I am talking about.
Matt: A plane on the Red Square?
Alexey: Yeah, that time in 19, I do believe it was 1993 or 1994, there was a very bad political accident. A German young guy land there, that plane on the Red Square, near the Red Square, practically on the Red Square. His name was Mathias Rust and that was a really big deal because everybody was really afraid of kind of Soviet empire. Was there a nuclear weapon and unmitable kind of air force and so on and somehow, I am not sure, the plane just landed in the very heart of all this environment. The scandal was ooof, and kind of, the Minister of Defense was fired and lots of change of this and this poor guy got a prudent jail time for it and whatever. So those was very embarrassing scandal for Soviet power. That was a very big deal at that time. When we got the very first version of spectrum hogobyte it starts with the small plane flying over the ground of this Russian church, which is a cathedral on the Red Square, we know that is for sure. We see it that way, was it was with Tetris, it was the very first screen of the game. When we saw it we realized that we created kind of the, this is a reminder of this scandal, so when the standard all hour efforts to make it good publicity and good game on Tetris it is all ruined by this guy. The people in work which kind of see it become immediately pale and understand that the biggest possible scandal, the worst nightmare they could imagine, that is what happened. In my view I see that no one really tried to kind of emphasize this fact. I understand that this is a just very good coincidence. So the people decide to move the plane there, I don’t know why, but that was a good idea. Accidentally it was on the ground of the church, so basically they didn’t have really bad kind of provocation on line. We put very seriously this needs to be removed immediately, otherwise, no deal. They stopped at an intersection no problem, please, we will change it immediately. That was it so, but the scare of this stuff, that was something kind of I remember for the rest of my life.
Matt: What did you think when you met Henk Rogers? Seems like you two really hit it off.
Alexey: Yes, he came in 1995 as I remember. Well, he was the very first professional in gaming I ever met. So the people who came after Tetris license was before made in a businessman kind of trying to make it a business deal, but he was a game designer and we immediately recognized the charter as a game designer so we became friends. So that is how it happened.
Matt: Have you played the various versions of Tetris for the Nintendo the tengen version and then I guess Nintendo….? Do you have a preference for one of those?
Alexey: Yes, so it is basically my favorite version is the old Gameboy version. I do like how the version on Nintendo was done, on family view, but somehow I didn’t play it too much because I am keyboard player not a joypad. I had a problem to play with that with the other hand when manipulating the pieces. Usually I did good result, but I can play no longer so I got used to playing just a keyboard with my right hand when you play the pieces. Basically, that is why I still love the keyboard version.
Matt: What do you think about the Tetris championships and Tetris as an East board sort of phenomenon?
Alexey: That is our ultimate goal is to make it happen. Unfortunately we are not there yet and we are working pretty hard to get there. First of all, we need to come up without the ranges to play our games. For this 30 years was lots of attempt to make compelling two-player game out of Tetris or multiplayer game. There was really good successes and successful versions there, but nothing as outrageous as the game of Tetris itself was done yet. We need to get there, that is the first we are working for. The second problem, it is not a problem, but it is something to be addressed. Tetris is a very good game to play, but it’s just a good game to which, I will put it this way. In order to become East work we need to come up with a really outrageous version in terms of observing on the screen. So you like to watch Tetris with the other player, but if you ask yourself wether you watch it for more the minute, probably your attention would be drawn to something else. So we need to come up with a really scenic version with lots of very good and very proper and very bright visual and sound effects and everything so we are working on it. As far as a competition the answer is yes, we did lots of competition where there lies which thinks needs to be done, so big screens is the main issue. Very good, how you say commutator kind of give lots of fire to explain what is going on on the screen, that is absolutely a must.
Matt: What do you think of those Tetris games played on the side of buildings?
Alexey: Wow, that is just for fun. That is a moment of my dream. My dream when Tetris was just in the cradle I kind of dreamed of seeing it on the buildings. Finally my dream came true, yes.
Matt: Do you get to play it on the Fila Building?
Alexey: No, I didn’t play, I just watched.
Matt: What about your games other than Tetris. You have Weltris, Hatris, Wordtris, Hexic?
Alexey: Yeah Hexic, Panduras Books is my very important title. I work on it while I was in Microsoft and that was the pretty good collection of unusual puzzles. I feel that I invented a new genre, but that genre is not there and yet it is not. It didn’t come to the position I expected it to be, but that was very good title with original puzzles. I am proud of it that is about it. Hexic is a good, was a very successful game. People still play it to my very big surprise. Those new games are, I have a good response for games will do for app stores as well.
Matt: I was wondering what it must be like to have made a game like Tetris that is so famous and so successful and people I guess look at you to create another one just as successful as that. I mean, do you sometimes feel like you are trapped in the shadow of this thing?
Alexey: Well, thee was a period when it really bothered me that I couldn’t come up with anything kind of, that wasn’t even close to Tetris, but later on I realized that well, if I want to continue to be in design I need to overstep it and I realized I like all my childs no matter how successful they are. If I publish the game and I like it so I like it.
Matt: I have an image of a shoulderless kind of interesting, it is a good way to put it. Do you play games like the Jewels or Candy Crush Saga?
Alexey: Yes, while I try to not miss any interesting game, I like Bejewelled very much. I did play, I can’t say I am a very good player, but I played it a lot and I love it. As far as Candy Crush, that is the Bejewelled I am talking about, the same games. I like this flow of game, I wonder if my people are not crazy about it. It is really a fun game.
Matt: I will check it out after this.
Alexey: Yes, please.
Matt: Okay, here is a question from Jake. Are there any Tetris like games like Dr. Mario or Columns that you enjoy?
Alexey: There was a period where when I really loved and fall in love with Dr. Mario. I played that a lot, it is a very good game. As far as Columns, somehow I get tired very soon. I can’t say there is anything bad about it. It is an interesting game. Something with the visuals with this game was not there. Puy Puy is a very nice version and I was proud that I did even worked on that. I did a puzzle mode and several levels. I remember this work. Puy Puy was kind of done very well and very professionally. As a Tetris column would probably be the best.
Matt: Just a couple of last questions here. One, I am wondering if you saw that video of that electric or mechanical version of Tetris? Tetrese or something like that? I think that was the name of it. I can send you a link to it later.
Alexey: I don’t know what you are talking about. Is it another interface or what?
Matt: This was the, actually they made a Tetris game that was instead of being a video game it was a mechanical contraption.
Alexey: Mechanical? So just board game with the Tetris pieces?
Matt: I can find it for you if you don’t mind.
Alexey: No, I understand what you are saying. I have seen several of them. For 30 years it was 3, no, maybe 5 or 6 different board games based on the Tetris type of published, the board game, which you play. One of them was very fine because people need to grab the pieces with glass wasn’t blend, it was forbidden to play with the long nails and so. I didn’t see them, but I think that wow, that Tetris inspired something else.
Matt: Now here is a pretty fun question I thought. It is from Miko Silva. Have you ever thought of designing a board game?
Alexey: A board game? Well, yes I did. I did several board games myself I did design. Somehow when maybe my games were too complicated to be really published, I was very attracted to the computer, but I do remember that I was very excited myself with the game called Diamondo, which used domino pieces and ice together. I put them on the computer and really pushed hard to many times to publish it, but it was never published because the computer was very wrong set up, probably should, I should publish it more traditional or board game publishers. I did design several board games, but I wasn’t very good at it
Matt: Do you feel like one last question?
Matt: So this is back in 2008 I saw an interview you had done it was posted on slashdot’s, I came across it. It was in a different language. You said something about free software and first I will run this by you and see if it is accurate or not. So they quoted you as saying free software should never have existed. I am wondering is that accurate that translation?
Alexey: Yes, I am not sure I don’t remember me saying it back in 2008, but I could sign this work now.
Matt: What do you not like about it?
Alexey: Basically, if it is just a very small piece of software which young guy need to show off came up and tried to please his friends, that is fine. It might be free, but generally the good games as the result of very hard work of several people, I just don’t understand why those people should work for free. It never happens in this world you know? So it is very honest and normal work, which doesn’t make anyone immediately millionaire or anything like that. it is a hard job, which needs to be compensated and the price of, and smile small price of the game should make it. I feel it is absolutely normal and proper way to develop this stuff. So people don’t, somehow people are rigid to pay kind of 4 dollars for small couple or few and then do it for 10 minutes, but they have trouble to pay kind of half of this price and get 3 or 4 hours of really good time with the game. That is ridiculous.
Matt: I feel the same way. I bought those Youtube videos and they were down and I got some comment that why don’t, you know, how dare you ask for this, work for this? It should just be for free. It is work! It is fun, but it is also work.
Alexey: It is hard work and basically I am not that much concerned about it because I know of the portion that will come to norm sooner or later, rather sooner than later. I really hope so. It is suggested period when it is a very big mess in industry when loads of new customer come. Well, what we observing for the last kind of 6 to 80 years? There is a mess and there is no really good set ups and attitudes are really strange around, but sooner or later so the serious companies step in and wonder on this mess. I really hope so.